TECHNICAL FORUMS => General Tech => Topic started by: jaysenodell on August 19, 2013, 07:26:12 AM
Title: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: jaysenodell on August 19, 2013, 07:26:12 AM
Preface: I'm not a "car guy" so I may have some terms wrong. I'm still learning. Sorry.
After a but of fun yesterday I noticed a "clanking" from the front driver side wheel. I thought it was just mud/gravel in the suspension as it seemed linked to bumps. while pretending to clean up I noticed the front driver side U joint housing had a ring with no mud on it. Washing it off showed that the scoring was actually into the metal. the scoring appears to be created by the lower grease fitting for the steering pivot. I figure there are 2 causes: 1. I bent the C shaped end of the axel that holds the wheel on. 2. The U joint or axle bearing has given up the ghost.
Other than "take it to the shop" what should I do to diagnose this a bit better?
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: Wingman on August 19, 2013, 08:20:57 AM
Take a pic and post or link to it on here. Sure sounds like a u-joint vacated a cap. Open up the wallet... ;D
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: jaysenodell on August 19, 2013, 08:47:12 AM
I'll get a pic in a few minutes. Not sure why i didn't think about that. Obviously it's because I'm an idiot.
You make it sound like I should start crying. Do I need to buy some flower on my way home?
Here's the spot that is hitting...
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: jaysenodell on August 19, 2013, 09:18:37 AM
And here's the evidence that it is hitting (vertical line is on all the yokes).
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: Wingman on August 19, 2013, 09:24:52 AM
Hmmm. That's odd to have the outer shaft rub like that. The outer shaft should be good and tight inside the unit bearing and not allow movement that would cause contact like that. My guess would be the unit bearing.
While it's apart, you might as well replace the u-joint with the most heavy duty unit you can get.
I recommend at least 6 roses... :P
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: MrMindless on August 19, 2013, 09:25:33 AM
First here's a little parts names reference.
In words: The u-joint connects the inner and outer axle shafts at their "ears". It has (4) caps and a cross. The knuckle steers; it swivels on an upper and lower ball joint that connect it to the inner C. The tie rod connects the two knuckles together, the drag link connects that to the steering box. Tie Rod Ends (TREs) are used at all ends. There's also an adjusting sleeve on each. Mounted to the outside of the knuckle is a Unit Bearing - it does the spinning.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: MrMindless on August 19, 2013, 09:29:07 AM
as far as diagnosis Mark is spot on - the outer shaft shouldn't be able to move in relation to the ball joints.
I'm not remembering there being enough clearence for a greaze zerk in the dana 30 lower ball joint, though. doesn't that need to get swapped for a plug after assembly and lube?
diagnosis of your unit bearing would involve jacking up the axle tube and seeing if the wheel and tire moves around in any way that it shouldn't.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: smichaelR22 on August 19, 2013, 09:56:11 AM
check unit bearing nut is tight. If there is a grease fitting on the top of the lower ball joints, there shouldnt be- no room, should be greased and replaced with a plug.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: jaysenodell on August 19, 2013, 11:14:27 AM
On the one hand I guess I'm glad that this is a bit more complex. I felt like a bit of an idiot. On the other hand I'm stumped as to why this just showed up after Whispering pines.
I clearly in over my head so off to the local shop it goes.
Just a thought... is it possible the plug is loose and what I think is a grease fitting is just the plug?
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: Wingman on August 19, 2013, 11:24:05 AM
If it is the grease fitting/plug, it will be self-correcting (break or grind off) and not harmful in the short-term.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: jaysenodell on August 19, 2013, 11:29:28 AM
So the dilemma is let it be and see what gives up first or take it to the shop.
Or I could use the 1/4 brain I have and try to push the cap down. Looks like lunch break repair.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: jaysenodell on August 19, 2013, 11:53:03 AM
Repair fail. More like "shatter cheap screwdriver win!"
Anyway, if the cap is press fit and about 3/8" in diameter, I think it is the cap. After removing some residue, the contact point is a 3/8" smooth sided cylinder with a flat top. It is wedged in there due to the smacking of the inner/outer ears. I tried to push it back to the right angle and press it down with a flat head screw driver but managed to do nothing more than create a need to go buy a new screwdriver.
I'll take it to the shop and have him check it out.
Thanks everyone.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: Wingman on August 19, 2013, 12:08:11 PM
Sounds a lot like the grease fitting. Have someone verify. If it is, it'll be fine...
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: jaysenodell on August 19, 2013, 12:30:57 PM
Mechanic meeting at 5PM. I'll let you know how it goes.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: xjh3 on August 19, 2013, 02:17:09 PM
I'm going to agree with Smike on checking the 36mm nut on the outside of the unit bearing. If this wasn't a problem until after WP (read: lots of wheel speed) I'd say its possible a slightly loose nut became more loose and allowed the shaft to wobble and hit something it didn't before. In this case, sounds like that something is a zerk fitting.
There should be a castellated cover over the nut with a cotter pin through it. That's very easy to check for, and if missing... I'd highly suspect the nut is loose.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: xjh3 on August 19, 2013, 02:20:20 PM
Unit bearings and ball joints would also cause the ears to "wobble" too I suppose. Jack up the wheel, grab at "10 and 2 o'clock" and try to shake it in and out. If there is any movement or clunking, that's bad.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: jaysenodell on August 19, 2013, 05:43:39 PM
Mechanic took a look and agreed that it is a grease fitting that shouldn't be there. He hasn't done any work there so this must predate my purchase of the vehicle. As to why it started yesterday... who knows.
I did do the tire pull test and there is no play. As a matter of fact when the tire is not loaded it does not hit the fitting. Not sure that gives me a warm and fuzzy, but it is what it is.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: smichaelR22 on August 20, 2013, 08:39:50 AM
if load to tire changes it, you have a bad unit bearing or loose unit bearing nut
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: jaysenodell on August 20, 2013, 09:06:02 AM
I'll give it another look.
I did not have the noise this morning on the drive to the office. Same tires as yesterday. in looking at the u joint area there does seem to be more clearance. Which would mean that either the axle is moving or the fitting dropped back into place.
Uncertainty is a PITA.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: MrMindless on August 20, 2013, 10:24:54 AM
the zerk (or the plug) is a threaded fitting. It won't "drop" - it'll wear down or shear off, though.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: jaysenodell on August 20, 2013, 10:30:58 AM
That just killed my warm and fuzzy feeling.
So basically the fact I now have space between the axle ears and the zerk means things are floating around. Which means that I may be the guy sitting on the side of the road with only three wheels attached. While humorous to think about, I don't think it would be a fun experience.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: xjh3 on August 20, 2013, 10:55:43 AM
Can you move the shaft/ears around by hand?
Can you use a jack and watch for anything moving when weight is taken on/off the tire?
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: Spencer on August 20, 2013, 11:29:10 AM
is this your dd?
do i remember correct that you live in Williamson? I'm in walworth if you want to bring it by tonight we could look at it.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: jaysenodell on August 20, 2013, 12:01:58 PM
'tis my daily driver and has been driven to the office today.
I'm actually in Palmyra but drive through Walworth on my way home (and by through I mean I get to stop at that stupid light and wait for nothing to cross the road that single light is red). I may take you up on the offer. What time is good for you?
xjh3: when raising the axle I see nothing move. I have a great view as my bottle jack has a short handle and I'm staring right the sucker when it goes up. Lowering is harder to see. I have a slight fear of lowering the vehicle while I'm under it. I was going to check here in the parking lot but security got their shorts in a bunch. I'll let you know what I see when I get it of the ground this evening.
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: Spencer on August 20, 2013, 12:25:01 PM
anytime after 6. i'll pm you my cell number and address
Title: Re: I think I broke it. U-Joint
Post by: jaysenodell on August 20, 2013, 04:29:07 PM
So I went over everything.
No play in wheels. No rotational noise from wheel (diff was audible when changing rotational direction) Zerk fittings on BOTH sides. Manual rotation was very smooth on both sides. Same clearance on both sides. I did find a pile of schmutz around the zerk and axle ears on the noise side. Both nut covers are in place with pins retainer pins in place. Using a simple gage (piece of wood) the gap between inner axel ear and zerk did NOT change from loaded to no load to loaded on the noisy side. The gap on the quiet side is slightly larger than on the noisy side.
At this point I don't think there is a problem.
Spencer I don't want to waste your time. I'll keep an eye on it. Thank you for the offer.
