Yesterday I paid a visit to Casey\'s (http://www.caseystrucksalvage.com/) on Tom\'s recommendation. Great guys - open wheel racers, Dodge nuts, and shockingly supportive of stupid projects.
Around Wednesday, I should have an SAE #2 bellhousing, starter, 14\" clutch and flywheel, and rebuilt Eaton RoadRanger RTOO9513 transmission with shifter and centered top cover ready for me. I\'m not the first to do this swap but I\'m certainly one of few; I think I\'ve come across a dozen who have investigated it (including Marty at Casey\'s, who pulls with his 2nd Gen Ram and puts down 685hp at the rear wheels, but did a fully trickn NV4500 instead) and 3 or so who have done it.
I\'ll have a two valve shift knob, but this pattern with low/high/OD split pattern (http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/l452/boomagoo_photos/Thumbnails/13sp_pattern.jpg)
I\'ll have some serous floor modification to do, and I still need - divorced NP205 tcase - driveline work - air source (checked out the B series onboard compressor and as I expected it\'s where my vacuum pump is... so I think I\'ll go Viar or similar electric, air consumption is low in this setup) - transmission mounts (bellhousing mounts and a rear spring mount) - clutch actuation - I\'ll be working with a lever arm that sticks out the side of the transmission - figure out where my front driveshaft will fit; that\'ll be interesting with the wide body twin countershaft trans
Since I\'ll have the seats out and carpet laid back I think I\'ll try to do my rocker panel repair at the same time.
Whether this swap starts immediately after I get the transmission or waits for my return from MN depends on whether I get a replacement 5th gear from my rebuilder immediately or not.
I considered doing an NV5600 swap, but this is similar money overall (would still need driveline clutch and crossemember work too), and I\'ve read of too many 3rd/4th gear issues with heavier GCW 5600 uses.
This is a double overdrive box with a 13th of .62:1; that will make my top gear final drive the same as a .73:1 single OD and 3.55 gears, I\'m really excited to bring down my cruise speed RPMs. Almost as exciting as that is loosing the ridiculous 45% ratio jumps in the 4500. If I never split a gear and drove it as an 8sp I\'d still be in better shape than with my 5sp, with a lower low and the same high. Aside from rolling heavy in the hills I probably won\'t split much but it\'ll be awesome all around to not have to wind it out to 3 grand just to keep from lugging in the next gear.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: Wingman on August 07, 2010, 06:58:19 PM
Big project! God speed, Mike!
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: smichaelR22 on August 07, 2010, 07:12:24 PM
is the case going to be under the cab or the bed? lol! looks cool
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: Ryan_25 on August 07, 2010, 07:21:40 PM
Just run it 2wd until winter. :-)
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 07, 2010, 07:51:11 PM
I may end up doing that if I can\'t find a divorced case. Extra cost of skipping the tcase for now would be very minimal since I\'m hoping to just use the tcase as my carrier bearing, and I\'d just need one shaft and yoke changed. Not sure how long I can go on shafts... with the stupid wheelbase I\'m sure one or the other really NEEDS to be 2pc, I\'ll just have to see how it all lays out. The tcase can\'t go as far back as my carrier bearing is: the fuel tank is in the way.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: etk300ex on August 08, 2010, 07:05:15 PM
what wingman said :)
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: Camo1Ton on August 09, 2010, 05:16:06 PM
Hope you\'re up to all the shifting :) Stop light to stop light could get old real quick, but cool project.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: smichaelR22 on August 09, 2010, 05:32:31 PM
more gears to skip!
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: jimsh on August 09, 2010, 06:02:25 PM
Sure would be a sweet setup for towing a heavy trailer through the hills.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 10, 2010, 10:31:55 AM
just because there\'s 13 of them doesn\'t mean I need to use them.
2-4-5o-7-8 is a match to the ratios I have now. empty that\'s probably close-ish to how I\'ll shift it. I\'ll probably split all the top gears just because it sounds cool :)
I\'m vastly more concerned with being annoyed about non-synchronized shifting than with the number of ratios. It\'ll take some practice I\'m sure.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: rejeep on August 10, 2010, 11:17:08 AM
I got a couple of trannys in old jeep you can practice on...
it takes getting use to.. but almost second nature at this point
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: matt on August 11, 2010, 11:19:27 AM
Wow Mike,
I should hook you up with my friend that put a dt466 into his f350. Lots of work. He ended up with a dog house and a 3\" body lift to fit that in.
For reference my d shafts cost me $500 for the crew cab. That has a divorced 205 behind my nv4500. Fleet pride did them up for me. The rear is all 1410\'s and I think the front is 1350\'s I was able to use parts and yokes off the originals so that saved me some coin. I think the front is now 5 feet long.
I should have the truck on the road soon. I hope.
What you doing with the nv? I may some people interested.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 11, 2010, 11:44:33 AM
I have a line of people on Cumminsforum interested in all the 4500 stuff.
I don\'t do business with FleetPride anymore, see my rant in the reviews section for why...
I\'m hoping to have this done a little sooner than as long as yours has taken :)
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 13, 2010, 08:25:42 AM
bare back of block ready for adaptor, bell, and 14\" flywheel...
Hoping Cummins has a rear main in stock, kit should be $70 and it\'s weeping a little now. Oddly it wasn\'t 18k ago.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 13, 2010, 08:30:15 AM
interior torn down too. passenger footwell carpet pad was nasty, I\'d spilled a couple drinks before I got rid of the dashboard cupholders, and it seems they\'d all stayed in the carpet pad under the waterproof backing. No evaporation.... Nasty. Probably alcoholic from the smell - but mostly just nasty.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: rejeep on August 13, 2010, 08:49:17 AM
Mike.. I have gobs of extra Dynamat of you want while your in there..
I ordered WAY TOO much from project \"hear music/conversation in Rover\"
Since a lot of your driving is for me in some way I do think about your comfort...
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 13, 2010, 09:00:57 AM
Since I\'ll surely be losing some insulation in the floor modification I\'ll definitely take you up on that Arie, thanks!
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: rejeep on August 13, 2010, 09:12:22 AM
Im leaving for CT today at some point.. Ill leave it in my rover for you..
clean area well before application and use the roller (if i can find it) I took a wire brush and some degreaser.. wasnt worried much about rust since it was on Aluminum. :)
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 13, 2010, 09:20:15 AM
Thanks Arie! Have a great trip.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 13, 2010, 09:22:23 PM
Just got home with:
sae #2 bellhousing adaptor 14\" flywheel and clutch starter rtoo9513 trans, fully rebuilt and bench tested shifter, knob, air lines rear spring mount 1710 ujoint for output yoke (holy hell is that huge)
divorce 205 tcase with all little yokes, gross, old truck take-out
I threw the shifter in the cab on the floor, it\'s tall enough to almost hit the inside rearview mirror. I\'m tempted not to shorten it right away :D
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 15, 2010, 06:32:04 PM
Ran into starter issues. I think there\'s a Ford application that will clear everything. Going back out to weld mounts shortly. Trans is 100% mated.
Having issues deciding how to do a clutch linkage. Thats tough to figure coming from hydro, and having no parts to go off of. I think I\'m going to integrate the pivot with the bellhousing mount but I haven figured it out 100% yet. Will have plenty of trial and error on throw too.
Exhaust will have to be a fenderwell exit with starter and bellhousing mount in the way
floor will be annoying but I have a fresh box if zip screws. If this thing ever needs to come out, I\'ll need every inch of the huge gaping hole to take it off and mate it up again.
Pictures from work assuming it\'s a slow enough day to do a progress writeup.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 18, 2010, 12:07:46 PM
it hasn\'t been slow.... but it\'s progressing!
mounts are done. clutch linkage is done. driveshaft is reworked.
still need: install driveshaft starter that I hope will fit is ordered and should be here tomorrow. air - planned out, just need to settle on tank location, mount/ wire/ plumb shifter - need to shorten/ bend/ install floor - that\'ll be interesting.... fill with oil dynamat/ seats/ carpet
I\'m sure there\'s some other little stuff but that\'s the high points, I should actually be really close to done tonight, and probably have the floor to work on tomorrow. The clutch was as terrible as expected, I hope the floor treats me a little better :)
I have flash burn on my arms and legs from so much welding but I\'ve got to say I HIGHLY suggest a nice heavy canvas tarp for out of position overhead welding, it was the most comfortable overhead welding I\'ve done.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 19, 2010, 05:22:48 AM
All wiring done switch for clutch safety reverse lights air speed sensor starter wiring moved
air all done. Slow leak that I can\'t hear, looses 20psi/hr roughly. I didn\'t test at what pressure it will range shift but it works fine at 60, I don\'t think it\'ll matter if it leaks down overnight for now.
Mounted the driver seat and shifter last thing. Have an idea of what\'s needed but I want sone conduit for mockup. Might piece something out of the 1\" tube, should work.
Driveline hung. Have boogered threads in one axle yoke hole. Need a 3/8-24 tap to chase it. I only have coarse thread stuff.
Great if long night.?
Hoping for test drive tonight. Needs: bad thread chased: 3/8-24 tap starter to arrive and fit exhaust tighten a couple mount bolts bleed rear brakes add gear oil shifter
then there will just be floor. No shift boot for now.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 19, 2010, 05:25:43 AM
Oh - does anyone have a chain wheel exhaust tubing cutter I could borrow? Would make piecing together a fender exit downpipe much easier than cutoff wheels everywhere.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 19, 2010, 05:28:58 AM
Hmm, Google says they\'re only $20-40. I\'ll have to check big box store catalogs and see if I can find one.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 20, 2010, 01:09:42 AM
Test drove. All works well except me. I feel like the first time I drove a stick.
Between the different shift pattern, remembering to range select, remembering not to split while in neutral, super short throws really giving me no clue what gear I\'m in..... Yeah. It\'ll take a little while. I think it\'ll be more fun than frustrating. Really happy with the clutch, and it doesn\'t feel like it steals power at all. It feels fast (but isn\'t)
speedo doesn\'t work at all. Need to swap wires and see if it works at all then. I had a 50/50 shot at something registering. Assuming black is ground on the 3 wire harness.
OO is noisy. I\'m going do double mat over the range box.
Think I\'ll try to swap speed wires at lunch tomorrow and see if it registers something. No idea what pulses per mile either setup is so IDK if I could get lucky and have it close or if something else is up.
Happy with my shifter. Holds about 3.5 gallons of gear oil.?
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: rejeep on August 20, 2010, 06:30:30 AM
pics?
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: etk300ex on August 20, 2010, 06:55:14 AM
look forward to seeing this beast, I will have to stop by tonight
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: Ryan_25 on August 20, 2010, 07:47:12 AM
3.5 gallons of gear oil? Thats not a small amount.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 20, 2010, 03:10:26 PM
it made the 5 gallon pail a LOT lighter. there\'s a note in the service manual about checking gear oil, and to paraphrase, \'being able to touch it through the hole isn\'t enough, an inch low is a bout a gallon\'
speedo was reversed wires as I expected. Works fine but I need a calibrater, need to divide the signal by somewhere in the 5-10 range..
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 23, 2010, 11:44:54 PM
Had a couple air system issues around Cleveland yesterday. Lost a line off the tank and fixed it. Immediately lost a line off the compressor and fixed it. Lost the line off the tank again, was out of partsand on the side of the road, plumbed around the tank and was OK. Had air pressure again. but it wouldn\'t range shift or split.
Screwed around for a while, verified pressure at the trans, searched eaton tech docs, couldn\'t find anything. Looked at re-plumbing it to force high range but didn\'t really know where to start - and hose fittings were the wrong size to start playing. Started, in desparation, poking for some sort of reset button or lever or something that I knew wasn\'t there, and found a missing aire regulator cap and spring. Proprietary part, had nothing closer than a too-small flashlight cap.... But if I pushed it the tans got air. Tried zip ties and sockets but they spit out quickly. Ended up with no spacer, just a zip tie. Got me just enough air to work. No splitting or range shifting since either took multiple seconds, but it would gete 10 miles to Lowes. I\'d called the only fleet service place Google found in the area and he\'d guessed the only likely parts place on a Sunday at 1830 would be Freightliner of Youngstown and that was the wrong way for me.
Flashlight cap in hand, I headed for the plumbing department, and found that 1\" npt was pretty close. The first cap I grabbed had too large an od to work. Tge second fit. Thread is the wrong pitch, but i got it on a couple turns with the spring from my flashlight as the regulator, and a zip tie for insurance. I\'m just lucky the plunger stayed when the cap and spring left.
As soon as I got the air system working in the Lowes lot I had a control line at the top of the trans start leaking too so I had to pull my access cover and re seat that too.
Made it to Summit in Akron, got my Dakota Digital SGI-5, and after drooling all over their store I drove in circles in their parking lot playing with this thing to get it set right. I had no clue what values I was coming from or going to so it was all trial and error. I ran out of adjustmenta couple times, switched between different outputs several times, and finally nailed it. I\'m in the venter of adjustment range so if I change gears or tires I have room to move. I got it to within 4% based just off indicated speed, then today on my next tank of fuel I corrected it based on odometers and my trip miles are now exactly accurate.
Im worried about how hot it gets, but I have nothing objective to go on. Need to get a temp gauge on it. I\'m sure it\'s fine, but the shift tower was hot enough to made me nervous after 300 miles at a stretch.
It\'s still a bit loud. Not much worse than stock, I don\'t think, but quieter would be nice. I think some heavy foam over the doghouse and a serious shift boot will do nicely - I\'m running the Smichael CJ5 special right now (beach towel stuffed in the hole). I\'d also like better fitting carpet. Hell, I don\'t even really like carpet in front and would be happy to loose it, but need something to cover foam and padding etc. Are there options out there I\'m unaware of? Nothing flat will work wonderfully....
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 23, 2010, 11:49:14 PM
Sorry for the iphonese typos :)
it did get me to MN and I believe my milage is much improved. 2000rpm at 73 now. Had been 2500 to do 70 before. Much better. Long legs now too, it\'ll do 80 comfortably. That was a screaming stretch before. Shifting is improving but interstates don\'t make for much practice.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: smichaelR22 on August 24, 2010, 08:19:14 AM
my NV5600 got to 230F this weekend towing down, that was the warmest i have ever seen.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 24, 2010, 05:07:05 PM
Temp gauge installed. 15-20 mile test drive it got to 160. Upgraded air gauge too. (I got a two gauge pod w oil pressure and water temp gauges; now I have matching and lit pressure and temp gauges)
I should actually get to posting some pictures soon.
Here\'s one of my new gauges, and my sweeeeet shifter boot.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 25, 2010, 01:42:46 AM
Quote
MrMindless wrote: just because there\'s 13 of them doesn\'t mean I need to use them.
2-4-5o-7-8 is a match to the ratios I have now. empty that\'s probably close-ish to how I\'ll shift it. I\'ll probably split all the top gears just because it sounds cool :)
I\'m vastly more concerned with being annoyed about non-synchronized shifting than with the number of ratios. It\'ll take some practice I\'m sure.
After some time with it, for the record I usually go 4 [range] 5-6-7-8-8o, so about the exact same amount of shifting I was doing before.
It\'s fun to split ranges around town to keep it at 1500-1750 at any given speed limit.
Shifting is coming much more naturally now, and I\'m finally used to the weird pattern. I had some weird air issues, and revisited the air regulator fix - they\'re now resolved but as part of testing I actually split every top range gear 5 through 8 a couple times. That\'s pretty fun now that I almost am comfortable doing it :)
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: smichaelR22 on August 25, 2010, 08:25:55 AM
my trans stays under 170 when not towing, and about 210 when towing. it takes about 2 hours to hit either of this temps
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: rejeep on August 25, 2010, 08:30:36 AM
can you hook a cooler up on that pig
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: smichaelR22 on August 25, 2010, 09:23:42 AM
they have a PTO version for my 6 speed manual i have looked at, but really those numbers arent bad, the oil breaks down at what like 350F?
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 25, 2010, 12:38:51 PM
Eaton says under 250. I can get a pump & cooler setup for mine. My airflow is severely restricted compared to a stock application. In also running dino oil, not synthetic, which would help out my temps.
I\'ll see where it sits after a few hours on the road. I think it took mr about 300mi before I was thinking \"hot\" and even 200 would seem pretty hot without being able to put a number on it. Now I\'ll know, and know whether or not to worry.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 25, 2010, 09:13:11 PM
Cruising around town it sits at 170?.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on August 26, 2010, 12:29:18 AM
I wanted to share with a little wider audience. Here are the pictures, and a bit more of a comprehensive step by step: http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11808272
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: etk300ex on August 26, 2010, 07:54:40 AM
nice work mike, I love how you take on large tasks a week before you go on long trips :hammer:
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: MrMindless on September 07, 2010, 11:50:42 PM
I haven\'t taken any pictures yet but I got the shifter all sealed up with a real live shift boot, and it\'s fantastic. No smells at all (unlike the scent of gear oil that crept into the parked truck with only a towel there) and when I\'m not split over, I think it\'s quieter than stock, and it\'s totally tolerable when split out. I got a couple boots and a replacement air filter/ regulator from Casey\'s last friday. Air regulator is installed as well.
Tonight I took care of a track bar bracket issue that\'s been leaving me to bottom out frequently since I put a bushing on the top end, so I\'m done cringing at bumps. Well, I will be once I\'m used to not bottoming out, that is. I also took care of some stripped out holes in my injector pump that hold the shudown solenoid. Should stop a bit of an oil leak and gets rid of a long standing ziptie bandaid.
Did the work in my garage through the rain storm. Proud moment, first time I\'ve done that through a sweet hardcore thunderstorm. I\'m usually outside under tarps, not being able to commit to finishing in a day and not wanting to leave my garage door open for a week :) I\'m about 6\' shy of being able to close the door behind what has been christened the Dumptruck.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: smichaelR22 on September 08, 2010, 12:19:29 PM
good times.
Title: Re: Tow rig insanity
Post by: Camo1Ton on September 08, 2010, 04:29:39 PM
